Bing Gay? -- Bing Crosby Internet Museum

Was Bing gay?

NAME	MESSAGE
Matthew	posted 01/31/05 08:41 AM Central Time (US) no email address given I heard a couple of Bing's songs at Christmas and he said the word "gay" once or twice. Was he trying to convey something to listeners, or was he just joking?
Ronald Sarbo	posted 01/31/05 09:13 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly In "I Surrender Dear" Bing says: "I may seem proud, I may ACT GAY. It's just a pose. I'm NOT THAT WAY." It is a tactic some of us have used to get women.
Judy Schmid	posted 01/31/05 09:37 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly It's amazing, some of the questions people post here, eh? "Gay" meaning homosexual started coming into vogue in the 1970s among most of the American population - prior to that, of course, it merely meant 'happy'.
Ronald Sarbo	posted 01/31/05 09:49 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly I don't know? I think Bing was on to something here. LOL. But in the early 30s detractors of "crooning" many times called it and the crooners of the day: Rudy Vallee, Russ Columbo and Bing, "effeminate" and "unmanly". Bing did much to dispel this with his interest in sports and other "manly" pursuits. His "fight" scene in "Mississippi" was also an attempt to show he was as good with his fists as he was with his tonsils.
John J. Murphy, Jr.	posted 01/31/05 10:15 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly An etymology is in order here. Dictionary.com analyzes the meanings behind this word: GAY: adj 1: bright and pleasant; promoting a feeling of cheer; "a cheery hello"; "a gay sunny room"; "a sunny smile" [syn: cheery, sunny] 2: full of or showing high-spirited merriment; "when hearts were young and gay"; "a poet could not but be gay, in such a jocund company"- Wordsworth; "the jolly crowd at the reunion"; "jolly old Saint Nick"; "a jovial old gentleman"; "have a merry Christmas"; "peals of merry laughter"; "a mirthful laugh" [syn: jocund, jolly, jovial, merry, mirthful] 3: given to social pleasures often including dissipation; "led a gay Bohemian life"; "a gay old rogue with an eye for the ladies" 4: brightly colored and showy; "girls decked out in brave new dresses"; "brave banners flying"; "`braw' is a Scottish word"; "a dress a bit too gay for her years"; "birds with gay plumage" [syn: brave, braw] 5: offering fun and gaiety; "a gala ball after the inauguration"; "a festive (or festal) occasion"; "gay and exciting night life"; "a merry evening" [syn: gala(a), festal, festive, merry] 6: homosexual or arousing homosexual desires [syn: queer, homophile(a)] n : someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex [syn: homosexual, homo] If you check its origins "gay" is an old English word from Germanic descent depicting a brightly garbed and happily, spirited individual. If one listens to very old phonograph recordings from the 1890's and 1900's everyone sings "happy and gay" -- meaning no cares, just a great time being had. Gay has taken on the later meaning of describing homosexuality in the last 40 years with the observance of the gay movement. Based on Bing's several biographies, his attraction was to the ladies, and he appeared to be a rough and tumble guy in his time, even before the murmurs about crooners being "all that."
Arne	posted 01/31/05 11:11 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly I think Matthew was just having a little joke, but here's an interesting side to the discussion, I think..... Most of us would assume and accept as fact that the word "gay" didn't come to be associated with homosexuality until the 60s or 70s, perhaps, but I came upon a reference that forced me to re-vise this timeline - I have an old 78-rpm record of Danny Kaye singing a Cole Porter song called "Farming" (not sure about the recording date, but certainly the 1940s). The idea behind this comic song is that all of the great Broadway and Hollywood stars of stage, screen, etc., as well as the "social scene", are flipping out for the latest fad, farming, and taking up agriculture as a trendy hobby. The song lists a number of funny lyrical examples, one of which is: FARMING, THAT'S THE FASHION FARMING, THAT'S THE PASSION OF OUR GREAT CELEBRITIES OF TODAY; DON'T INQUIRE OF GEORGIE RAFT WHY HIS COW HAS NEVER CALFED GEORGIE'S BULL IS BEAUTIFUL, BUT HE'S GAY! So, at least in New York theatrical circles, it seems that the word had that double-meaning as far back as 60 years ago.
Arne	posted 01/31/05 11:25 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Actually, the use of the word "gay" as a description of one's sexual preference must have come into common usage by no later than the 60s; as early as 1971 Bing was singing "I Surrender Dear" on TV with the following (substituted) lyric: I MAY SEEM PROUD PLEASE LET ME SAY IT'S JUST A POSE....... Previously, the lyric had been I MAY SEEM PROUD, I MAY ACT GAY.....
Carmela	posted 01/31/05 02:51 PM Central Time (US) no email address given "Going Hollywood" has a gay line also. "Out where they say let us be gay. I'm going Hollywood..." Bing was one of the few men who wasn't gay in Hollywood.
Greg Van Beek	posted 01/31/05 03:31 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Arne, Yes, I know the version of "I Surrender, Dear" well of which you speak...it's from the Flip Wilson Show in 1971. Also, in 1974 on the Bing Crosby and Friends CBS-tv special, during a medley of Bing's hits, Bob Hope sings part of "I Surrender, Dear". He adds a comment after singing the line 'I may act gay' (and being prompted by Bing's speaking of the next line of the song, 'it's just a pose').... Bob declares "you know I'm not that way!"
David Lobosco	posted 01/31/05 04:31 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Does anyone remember Bing's 1929 recording of the song "Gay Love". In 1920s America the recording was a simple beautiful waltz. However, an uneducated listener 75 years later may still think of it as a waltz...but a waltz with two male dancers! How times change!
Ron Field	posted 01/31/05 10:16 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly In the films didn't the circumstance make it that they shared a bed? They were fully dressed, so I can't see the problem of it all in the text it was shown. And once again because of the circumstance - a kiss, with much spitting afterwards.
Arne	posted 02/01/05 01:11 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Actually, although "Matthew" is obviously just another trickster juvenile engaging in the internet version of what we used to call "funny fone calls", his initial comment did provoke some interesting historical commentary back and forth (I thought). I personally don't think we've quite reached the "Steven, Please" (amber) alert status yet.... although this second note from Matthew might be a sign that trouble is, indeed, brewing. But just to set the record straight for the lad: Yes, Matthew, the sharing of beds does indicate that Hope and Crosby were, in fact, "gay". That goes for Laurel and Hardy, Abbott and Costello, The Three Stooges, and Martin and Lewis, all of whom shared a bed at one time or another in the movies or on TV. All gay. You're one sharp, observant, student of the human condition, you betcha!
Lars	posted 02/01/05 05:54 AM Central Time (US) no email address given David, I remember that tune very well and used to love the melody when I was a kid - however I would hardly dare to sing it out loud today...
Sue Horn	posted 02/01/05 07:11 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly I think the term had both meanings as early as the 1930s, though the homosexual one didn't come into wide acceptance until it was embraced by the gay movement. Bob and Bing had jokes about everything in their films, Bob never getting the girl (and when he finally did the kid looked like Bing), being thrown into funny situations with each other, including kisses and hugs that were rejected later. All of this was the sense of comedy. Cary Grant had a great line in "Bringing Up Baby" when he was dressed in a frilly robe of Katherine Hepburn's because she'd made off with his clothes. He said "I've just gone gay all of a sudden." This was an obvious double-meaning reference, played for laughs, with nothing implied about the real speaker of the line (just the character). I think it's the actors' personal lives that determine their sexual orientation, not the lines they acted or sang in films. From everything I've read, Bing wasn't gay, but it would have been his business if he were. I disagree with Carmela that Bing was one of the few men who wasn't gay in Hollywood at the time. That is a blanket statement with nothing to back it up. For anyone interested in a good documentary on the topics of gays in Hollywood, I recommend "The Celluloid Closet". It is excellent and examines many of the scenes (including the two men waltzing mentioned by DL and Matthew) that had special meaning for the gay community when there were very few to find.
Wayne Martin	posted 02/01/05 09:28 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly I don't really care about who is, was, or might be gay (but I really doubt that Bing was). I once read a liner note somewhere that "Gay" in "Gay Love" didn't mean that back then. Maybe, maybe not. One of the strangest records I ever heard was an old Varsity 78 by the Harry James orchestra, with a very male-sounding voice singing "In My Sweet Little Alice Blue Gown." As a child I used to laugh every time I heard it, trying to imagine what a big burly guy would look like in that "Alice Blue Gown." Everybody to their own tastes, as the old lady said when she kissed the cow.
Lee	posted 02/01/05 11:38 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Is this history revisionist political correctness run mad or what? The 3 Stooges gay along with Bing and Laurel and Hardy all because they did a scene in a movie where they sleep in the same bed as another man or group of men in the stooges case. This means Archie and Mike Stivic from All In the Family are gay, they slept in the same bed too once. I must be gay, my Dad used to sleep in our bed to keep us kids quiet in the morning. Course we couldn't sleep listening to his loud snores, but little did I know that I'm now gay because of that. Guess I'm in good company with Bing. Ahhhh, I can't stand this idiocy anymore. Please Steven DELETE this entire line of nonsense.
Jon O.	posted 02/01/05 08:52 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly I find the recent �outing� of Abraham Lincoln to be more than a little suspect, given what I�ve read of the weak evidence late author C.A. Tripp puts forth in his controversial new book, not to mention the wealth of documentation on Lincoln�s heterosexual relationships which Tripp knew of but allegedly suppressed. And not only was Lincoln scholar Michael Burlingame -- who�s currently working on a three-volume bio of Lincoln, and who shared research with Tripp � allowed by Tripp�s publisher to write a �respectful dissent�, included at the end of the book, which concludes, �that it is possible but highly unlikely that Abraham Lincoln was 'predominately homosexual��, no less than the New York Times Book Review allows that Tripp, a gay activist, �had an axe to grind.� But what makes the claim most implausible to me is why, if Lincoln was in fact homosexual, or even suspected of being homosexual, did his many political enemies never exploit it, or even accuse him of it? Rumors of that type of bombshell would have surely leaked out, and in those far less tolerant times such a revelation surely would have been used to destroy the credibility and career of a person who was utterly hated and abhorred by half the nation. And let�s face it, Lincoln has been one of the most voraciously studied persons in the entire world for well over 100 years, repeatedly subjected to the �picklocks of biographers� � how could something like this, if true, have been kept secret for so long? There. Made it in less than the 272-word Gettysburg Address limit.
David Lobosco	posted 02/02/05 06:15 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Dearest Lee, I don't think you should take this thread so seriously. I think it is just a comment on how innocent entertainment was in the time of Bing Crosby and the Three Stooges. Eddie Cantor recorded a song called "Ma, He's Making Eyes At Me", but in this sad modern times of society it can be viewed differently.
Ron Field	posted 02/02/05 03:51 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly He wasn't, but he sang some gay songs. I have being playing a tape today in the car that I compiled. The songs that are gay and put a spring in your feet - 'It's the natural thing to do'; 'All you want to do is dance'; 'I wish I was Aladdin' (soundtrack-like it better than the commercial recording, which I like). They are only a couple of gay songs that make you happy and and feel good. Just so many good songs in the 30's that makes one feel that way. Let's walk on our toes in happiness.
BarryB	posted 02/02/05 07:10 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly I think Bing's gayest song was "You must have been a beautiful baby," and he did it with his brother Bob.
Jim Kukura	posted 02/02/05 07:36 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly The use of the word "gay' to describe homosexuality, has sure messed up a lot of good old songs. And I just watched "The Gay Divorcee" starring Fred and Ginger. Everyone in that film seemed very heterosexual.
Sue Horn	posted 02/02/05 09:45 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Now, Jim, you can't mean everyone!! How about the "gigolo" hired by Ginger to allow her to divorce? His wife was cheating on him, and he didn't have a clue (because I think he didn't care too much about women, at least that's how his part was played). He was always "the other man", but he was totally safe!! And Edward Everett Horton was in that one, and his character seemed a little less than manly. In the '30s movies, these characters were comic elements, basically the only way that gays were allowed to be portrayed. I just saw that movie on TCM too, which is why I remember these interactions so vividly.
David Foe	posted 02/04/05 10:39 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Arne, I've got that same record of Danny Kaye singing "Farming." It's hilarious. Besides the clever Cole Porter lyrics, his animal sounds are funny too.
Jim	posted 02/06/05 04:30 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Sue, the gigolo has several children in the film, and why can't he be just a devoted husband, even if he is naive. And Horton's character marries the Gay Divorcee's aunt at the end of the film. I think you are confusing a common Hollywood ploy of the time that men avoided marriage as some kind of trap, as opposed to not being attracted to women. How about all those manly comboys who left the girl behind and rode off with a horse and a comic sidekick for company?
Sue Horn	posted 02/07/05 12:02 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Yeah, he does have the kids, Jim. I was teasing you. I think that a lot of the images in the films that we are talking about did a lot of bending of what was expected for comic effect and/or laughs. Personally, I thought the gigolo was played rather foppishly, no insult intended. I think it made his "career" funnier, especially when he believes that his 9-year-old son's voice is changing!! And I'd forgotten that EEH married the aunt at the end of the Gay Divorcee. That could mean he was straight or not, not that it really matters. I just like the way that manliness or lack thereof was kidded about in these early films. My recommendation of "The Celluloid Closet" still stands. Many of the scenes highlighted in the documentary were not necessarily meant to appeal to gays, but they ended up doing so because there were so very few "role models" in film at the time. So whether it was the intent or not, it is very interesting to see how some of these scenes were interpreted by some.
Cheryl	posted 07/06/05 11:14 PM Central Time (US) no email address given I think you all need to get out more. Maybe you should listen deeply to his music and watch many of his films more closely. You can almost feel you are there with him and he draws you right in. He died when I was only around 4, but I have a great respect for him and wish I could have met him to let him know how much his music is still appreciated by myself and so many others. It saddens me to read that people will joke and make fun of his music. The lyric's he sung that he felt gay mean "happy", I am positive you already know this. Stop being silly. Please do not mock him, he should be remembered with respect.
Sue Horn	posted 07/07/05 03:40 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Well, since most of this thread was written in February, five months ago, it seems a bit moot to draw attention to it and criticize what was said. If you read closely, Cheryl, you'll see that we are not making fun of the man or his music. What we were debating is when the double meaning of the word came into common usage and how early it was used among the entertainment crowd. None of this is an aspersion on Bing, just an academic and linguistic debate.
Cheryl	posted 07/07/05 08:00 PM Central Time (US) no email address given Sue, I was replying to Matthew for most and it is obviously an ongoing discussion or you would not have replied to me. It sounded as though Matthew actually thought he was gay or why would there be a question "was Bing gay?" Read his comment again, I am just defending a legend...don't need you all huffy. Don't piss an Irish woman off!
Cheryl	posted 07/07/05 08:08 PM Central Time (US) no email address given Won't have a personal opinion to add to this discussion group again. Needs Sue's approval first.
Dan O.	posted 07/07/05 10:47 PM Central Time (US) no email address given Cheryl, Sue can be Bitchy sometimes. It annoys me!
Cheryl	posted 07/07/05 11:00 PM Central Time (US) no email address given Dan, Thank you!
Arne	posted 07/08/05 03:32 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Warning: I will now make an intemperate statement that will be justifiably lopped off this board as soon as Steven sees it: Dan and Cheryl, you are either "having us on" as the British say, or you are dull, humorless people devoid of any sense of irony or logic. ......"Sue" (as in "Horn") has consistently been one of the most intelligent, reasonable, interesting, well-intentioned, and generally level-headed contributors ever to grace this site. Her contributions to this specific thread have been helpful, pleasant, and kindly. In the words of that great philosopher Floyd Vivino, you guys are "crazy nuts".
howard crosby	posted 07/08/05 06:44 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Bing Crosby was not gay. Period.
Judy Schmid	posted 07/08/05 07:12 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly I smell trolls again...or is it 'troll'? OR..maybe someone hasn't taken the time to get to know the site and its regular posters before they lip off. Hang in there, Sue...some of us know you!
Cheryl	posted 07/08/05 10:12 AM Central Time (US) no email address given Howard Crosby just wrote what I was trying to sum up in a nut shell. The only crazy nuts I see is the one who would even post the question "was Bing gay". Why would it even be a topic? I was just trying to make a point of how silly the question was to discuss in the first place. What does it have to do with Bing? Really! He married twice and had children with both. There was no hidden meaning. Then I get pounced on. Why? The most intellectual people keep it simple. I am not here to get to know anyone, just thought I would pop in as a fan to express how I felt about the man and his music, I think I am in the wrong sort of fan site for that. Judy, do not assume that you know me or my intentions either. It was a silly topic to post period.
Judy Schmid	posted 07/08/05 10:32 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Cheryl - you give no return email address, so you can't be addressed privately. What Sue was saying is that the thread was silent for 5 months - what you obviously DID NOT know is that many posts were eliminated by Steven because they were inflammatory. If you come here to be nasty to regular posters, that's not a good sign. Yes, many of us agree the thread was ridiculous - many of us also have emailed each other wondering why the thread wasn't deleted because it got even more ridiculous. Sue was just commenting what many of us felt prior to your emerging here - that the thread is silly and it should die. If you spent some time lurking here, you'll find a good group of fans (and family, obviously) of Bing's - pop in again from time to time but please don't get defensive - there's a lot of history here and you'll learn a lot (I certainly did) about people's passion for Bing and their own posting style. Try it - it's a good way to wile away an afternoon.
Cheryl	posted 07/08/05 10:59 AM Central Time (US) no email address given Thank you for your return. I was not coming in to attack ANYONE and did not think I would be attacked in return. It has gotten out of hand. It's good to know that this discussion is suppose to be obsolete. Keep in mind that I AM new to this group and I was not reading the date in which it got started. I assumed because it was still in the list of topics that it would still be ongoing. I am in ignorance. My first posting was written late at night, couldn't sleep, saw the title...got disturbed. That is what motivated me to write and I sometimes ramble when I am tired. As for my e-mail, I am afraid to post it.
Jon O.	posted 07/08/05 11:57 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Cheryl, I find nothing in Sue's post that in any way resembles an "attack". And this board is one of the friendliest on the Internet, certainly the last place anyone should be "afraid" to post their e-mail address. No one's out to get anyone here. We all admire and appreciate Bing (except for the occasional troll), and this is a great place to discuss our thoughts and share our appreciation. I believe Sue was merely trying to clarify what came before on this particular thread, and Judy wanted to make you aware of the fact that several inflammatory postings--which many of us read--had been deleted weeks ago. Hope you'll stick around, and enjoy this terrific source of knowledge for Bing fans.
Arne	posted 07/08/05 12:55 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Cheryl, I will explain myself as simply as possible: 1. You entered this thread with some comments. 2. Sue re-entered the thread with some comments in response. 3. In your next series of posts (assisted by "Dan O."), you proceeded to address Sue in a negative, mildly insulting way, despite the fact that there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in her post that should have brought about this negative, personal series of comments. 4. I stuck my nose in because I (and I know I speak for many others here) consider Ms. Horn a friend, and less deserving of any kind of personal "attack" of any one who ever posts here. I found it so mind-boggling that you and Dan should characterize her this way that it seemed crazy to me. .....Of course this was a goofy topic. Of course the person who originally brought it up all those months ago was just trying to cause trouble (you should have seen his follow-up posts that Steven removed). -- But, as I said at the time, it seemed to lead to some tangential topics and observations that were interesting to read and talk about.
Sue Horn	posted 07/08/05 02:23 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Wow, miss a few hours and look what gets stirred up! I was not intending to attack anyone, and I actually applaud Steven for leaving the interesting portions of the thread intact. I love academic discussions of various and sundry topics, and that's what this thread had developed into. The fact that the title of the thread is a question that was answered very easily as a resounding no by those who knew Bing doesn't negate the rest of the discussion. Anyway, I plan to let this sleeping dog lie!!
Cheryl	posted 07/08/05 03:34 PM Central Time (US) no email address given Subject dropped. Hope to start fresh on another subject that is a little more positive. Like I tried to express before, my intensions were not aggressive or as an attack. It was just my feelings towards the title. Had a long discussion through e-mail with Judy. All is well. God Bless ya all!
Cheryl	posted 07/08/05 03:41 PM Central Time (US) no email address given Arne, Glad you stick up for your friends. Wish you really truly knew me as a person. Your opinion of me may have been different. I think I may have misunderstood Sue's intentions as well. You would make a great lawyer.
Steve Carras	posted 07/08/05 04:19 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly And to end this, Bing was "gay" ONLY in the way that SHOULD be used..cheerful, happy and blissful. In that breezy Bing Crosby way, of course. Rudy Vallee, on the OTHER hand..:)
Arne	posted 07/08/05 04:38 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Cheryl, a Lawyer? Hmmmm...... No, I'm too lazy. I can just see me in court: ....while the opposing lawyer would be checking his laptop for details of vital importance to his client's case, I'd be checking mine to see "what's news" on the Bing website.
Sue Horn	posted 07/09/05 07:57 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Okay, so I guess we all agree to turn over a new leaf!! Welcome to the site, Cheryl. You sure got a baptism by fire!! :)
Dan O.	posted 07/13/05 07:48 PM Central Time (US) no email address given Cheryl, you come across as a complete homophobe and the way you have responded to this (old and previously dead thread) reveals you to be completely humorless. I suggest you become more broad-minded, and get out more. There have been guy rumors about a whole plethora of stars: Errol Flynn, Gary Cooper, Tyrone Power, James Dean, Marlon Brando etc. Everybody else managed to confirm that Bing was certainly not gay without resorting to insults.
Sue Horn	posted 07/13/05 11:41 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Cheryl, just ignore the troll. This is one of those who likes to stir things up needlessly. I find it ironic that he's berating you for resorting to insults when he's the one who used the b-word about me!! It takes all kinds. Anyway, this thread is dead. Cheryl, you are very welcome here, as I think all of us regulars have tried to show.
Dan O.	posted 07/14/05 01:09 AM Central Time (US) no email address given That was a week ago and I've only just checked back. It seems I misjudged Cheryl's purpose in re-starting this thread, and she was just trying to be a homophobic idiot. She is quite clearly just a troll, not even bothering to give her e-mail address. Evil religious fanatics like her are not welcome here.
David Lobosco	posted 07/14/05 06:59 AM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Why is this even a topic of discussion? Bing fathered seven children (even though one of them was Gary Crosby), and he was a hunter and a sportsman. I highly doubt there was a homosexual bone in his body...although there is nothing wrong with homosexuals. Instead of people worrying about a singer's sexual preference or whether or not they beat their kids, people should look at the body of work that an individual left behind.
Cheryl	posted 07/14/05 02:22 PM Central Time (US) no email address given Good point Judy. That was my next thought. LOL hard!
Sue Horn	posted 07/14/05 08:28 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Ronald, don't go criticizing our Steven!!! This is a labor of love which he does in addition to his full-time job and other pursuits. Without Steven Lewis there would be no Bing Museum on the Internet. I think the chances of a kid reading these threads is very slim. He or she would have to do a Google search for "Bing Crosby" "gay" and whatever word you feel is a profanity in these messages to have half a chance of finding this. If the kid knew enough to search on all those items, the kid has already read the thread over someone's shoulder and wants to share it with someone else. All in all, a very unlikely turn of events. Remember, ignoring the idiots makes them go away. Criticizing the person who are the heart and soul of this site only fuels their fires.
Ronald Sarbo	posted 07/14/05 08:59 PM Central Time (US) contact the author directly Sue: In NO WAY was my suggestion critical of Steven. It is very difficult for only ONE person to monitor a board full time. As you say he does this in addition to his other activities. The offensive posts are still there and are affront to the dignity of the forum. Best, Ron.