Posted - 01/05/2010 : 08:01:50 AM
Repeat of "Nancy for Frank..and Mary for Bing" today at 3pE on Siriusly Sinatra (Sirius Ch. 75, XM Ch. 73) - hear Mary Crosby spin her favorite songs of her dad's! It's four hours of BING CROSBY, with a sprinkling of Frank, Rosie, Louis, Bob, Judy, Ella, and Patti/Maxine/Laverne! Don't miss it!
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 4:15:06 PM
I was delighted to hear so much of Bing on the re-broadcast while driving down the coast today. Mary is so on the money when she says that Bing was a "below the radar kind of guy" and that her family was below the radar for too long and now wants to emulate with what The Sinatra Family has done to perpetuate Frank's memory. I purchased 10 sets of the Bing/ Mosaic collection I am delighted Mr. Crosby is getting the notice he richly deserves finally from his own family, even if it is a profit making venture it gets Bing out there which is what counts. Still, I continue to feel disgruntled that it took decades for this to happen. How nice this would have been 20 or 30 years ago when many of Bing's fans, those that grew up with him, were still with us and could have enjoyed these wonderful transfers. Better late than never I suppose. Nancy does a great job with the hosting of her show which we listen to and I thought Mary Frances came through rather nicely. It was pleasant to hear her praise her Mother for permitting the Mosaic collection to become a reality. I guess this is easier than suing MCA. Mosaic really has done a wonderful job in all of this and the money spent is well worth it with just one listen of any one of the 7 CD's.
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 5:05:25 PM
Since when is making money a bad thing, Mr. Executive? And people have NO CLUE as to what's been going on with the family, with business, or anything - all the commentary here has been mostly incorrect.
The family should run a business and give things away? I guess that must be what you and your family does with YOUR income - give it all away? What other artist or artist estate spends money restoring wonderful art and then gives it away? The work that's being done now could NOT have been done 20 or 30 years ago.
And if MCA/Universal had done their job as Bing's label - a label he help build - his legacy would've been served properly.
jane d s
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 4:51:33 PM
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 5:36:23 PM
Well said, Judy and Jane.
USA 353 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 02:29:22 AM
1. Members of the ICC read Mary's letter to the fans two years ago where she gave a brief glimpse as to why the family kept a low profile early on. This should have sufficed, as the information was there.
2. Many things that happen are none of our business - this is why Bing didn't share and why his family still chooses not to share. Many fans might be shocked to learn how many shady dealings have been done by folks purporting to have the business' and Bing's best interests at heart, when sadly just the opposite has been discovered to be true.
3. Sharing false information here, no matter in how much detail, doesn't require a detailed rebuttal of every incorrect point.
4. Mr. Giddins has shared limited information, but ONLY at the urging of certain individuals here - he and his family, too, are entitled to their privacy.
5. The bulk of sales from the new Mosaic sets are NOT from the 'deeply devoted fans' but from their regular subscribers, from new fans garnered from new social media, and from the "Time" magazine recommendation - the connection of which came through BCE's office.
6. Members of the ICC likely read the detailed description in the most recent fan club magazine of the production of the new Mosaic box set by the PRODUCER, who did ALL the remastering, put together the contact with Mosaic, and basically DID ALL THE WORK. It was a terrific diary of the project, from inception to execution, done by a professional with many successful projects to his credit.
7. Bing's children read this board. They choose not to participate because of most of the pettiness that is evident here, despite the many wonderful comments and information sprinkled in between the rumors and innuendoes.
8. If JimM has any additional concerns, or more fairy tales, or more ax-grinding, he can certainly share them with BCE's VP, the producer of the Mosaic set, in care of email@example.com, or here.
The message that should have been coming through the last two years is that a framework is now in place to PROPERLY and PROFESSIONALLY promote Bing's legacy. The announcement in the holiday greeting should've resulted in some positive buzz about an upcoming PBS special - but nary a word here (much positive buzz, however, in newer social media). Threads here started to discuss the new Mosaic box set have devolved into confusing courtship rituals or something...
A publicist's job is to promote the client and the client's art, not to rebut every rumor that floats through the ether - nor to promote themself. We hope to share more exciting TRUE news soon, but only when all the Is are dotted and the Ts crossed. We think the news will please long-time and new fans alike.
Happy new year.
USA 100 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 08:38:43 AM
I found this a rather interesting post, particularly number 5 on Judy's list. It seems to me that one would be a "deeply devoted fan" to shell out $119.00 for the set.
I know many on these pages who have bought sets and they strike me as "deeply devoted" fans. I bought 10 sets for gifts to others Judy and I am a "deeply devoted fan". I would like to think my contribution and those of other deeply devoted fans would help offset the cost of restoring the masters since Mr. Bader indicated how expensive it was to do this in the ICC article which I read with great interest. Those of us who knew Bing were keenly aware of his desire to, as Mary pointed out during Nancy's XM broadcast, stay low on the radar and this was the case long before he married Kathryn and certainly afterwards.
I am sure many will be delighted to learn more about the documentary which has been alluded to several times and perhaps some details about what is in the works would be appreciated by the deeply devoted fans who have been the ones who have written letters to MCA over the years, created web pages to memorialize Bing's efforts, and of course the many members of the ICC who have done more than anyone to perpetuate Bing's memory. The Jonzo series and now the Sepia series certainly have done much to keep the flame buring as well as these endeavors are also supported by deeply devoted fans. People like Ken Twiss, the Founder of the Bing Crosby Historical Society, who to his dying day was upset over that cease and desist "letter" he received from the "family" when he was trying to keep Bing's memory alive, would have bought the set had he lived long enough but he died tragically with the disappointment of that darned letter on his mind.
As an avid collector of anything Crosby, I can assure Judy that only a devoted fan would purchase this collection and pay the premium for the opportunity to hear this terrific recordings. Judy alleges that the primary purchaser's of this collection comes from "subscribers" that Mosaic already had on their data base. Again, at $119.00, they too would have to be a deeply devoted fan to take an interest in Crosby CBS recordings. Mary stated on Nancy's show that the "family" was impressed (my word) by what the Sinatra Family has done to perpetuate their Father's memory and that they, the Crosby Family, wants to do the same which I think is wonderful to hear and goes beyond the interview Mary gave two years ago. Mary's appreciation to the fans was well noted from that interview as I recall and much appreciated.
That said, then we have much to look forward to it would seem since the fans have been the ones that have been doing this for three decades. It's not just about protecting the licensing of Bing's name and likeness, but also being proactive in creating tangibles for the deeply devoted fans, which the Mosaic Collection does and which serves to provide an expansion of Bing's presence in our culture, but also gives the family the high road in knowing that they have given back what they have been given which seems to me to be in the spirit of what Bing was about, particularly when it came to the charities and the worthy causes he supported. I am sure that the family will be delighted with the positive response to the marketing of this collection and perhaps Bing's many nephews, nieces, and grand children will enjoy knowing that Bing's memory continues to thrive thanks to the deeply devoted fans who will continue to buy these recordings, or so I hope, for years to come.
As to the balance of the content of Judy's list, I stand by my earlier remarks.
USA 462 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 08:49:11 AM
To Judy, do you think scolding your audience is the best way to gain allegiance and win hearts? I am not familiar with all the ICC issues you mentioned, as I am not an ICC subscriber, so I am not on either side. But I am familiar with this board. Telling people they're not excited enough over your "news" which you choose to slowly drip out in tiny drabs to an audience you resent because they don't seem to be panting at every syllable and even worse that dare to say "the emperor (Crosby Enterprises) has no clothes". It seems that if your "subjects" are not of the "hear no evil, see no evil, & most importantly speak no evil" type, you turn your wrath on them.
I do not believe people's opinions here are "petty" just because you would rather not hear the truth spoken. When you deride other discussions here because they don't meet your standards of a professional review or veer off into side issues, well that just comes under the heading of freedom of expression, baby, and I love it. Sure it can be messy, may not be pretty, but it's the best form of communication around.
As for the Bing radio recordings of the '50's and early '60's, the Pete Moore Orchestrated versions were much much more preferrable to the rinky dink sound of the Buddy Cole originals. One good reason I have chosen to NOT buy the Mosaic set in spite of the "buy it for the sake of the world" approach I get everywhere. Now if you could come out with orchestrated versions of all the rest of the Bing radio recordings, other than the 70 songs Moore already released, I'd be happy to buy, just don't charge a month's rent. The Mosaic set is way over-priced. No matter what you may say, I can tell you "average Joe's & Jill's" aren't going to happily lay out $120 for music from someone they may only know as the guy who sings White Christmas. Common sense tells you you would have a much greater chance of new potential Bing fans taking a chance on a new set of music if the price were at least 1/2 what the Mosaic set charges. I loved the colorized Holiday Inn, wish there would be more colorized Bing movies released. But that's just my opinion and wishes for Bing future materials and a realistic approach to pricing.
Where I take exception with your comments is when
you seem to be putting down your audience merely because they don't
seem to be thrilled to death over your incosequential "news". A PBS
special, made up of more clips that only make you angry that the
complete show or movie that those clips are taken from are not
available commercially. A PBS special, nice, but who cares? I would
like to see Bing's OWN UNCUT TV specials and movies released on
DVD. I'd like to see all his '50's and '60's albums put out on
commercial CD. I'd like to see the complete episodes of Bing's TV
sitcom released on DVD. That's the news I'm panting for. Another
lousy compilation ridden even worse butt-kissing TV special,
whoopee, it means nothing compared to all the real Bing TV Shows,
colorized movies, the sitcom, & albums that are available but
are still being held back. Now I realize you hate it when the
monkey speaks evil, but I'm no monkey.
Edited by - Lee on 01/06/2010 2:03:30 PM
USA 353 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 1:26:19 PM
From BCE's VP Marketing & Production:
The gentleman posting under the name "JimM" illustrates perfectly the reason why the Internet can never be a trusted and credible source of information. Rarely has someone with such a complete lack of factual information about a topic pontificated so irresponsibly about said topic. You'd almost think this man was a United States senator. But the Internet is a forum in which anyone can say anything. And Jim certainly has every right to be completely wrong and share his misinformation with anyone who wants it.
This recent effort, The Mosaic Collection, came about because of the fans who have been more than patient, and diligent I'd say, in sustaining Bing's legacy. I note that people associated with the ICC devoted some effort in working on this collection, true admirers of Bing's work. These are the ones who did the real leg work. The estate by allowing these folks the opportunity to clean up the masters and put together this outstanding collection.
The information regarding how the Mosaic set came about is certainly out there. The Mosaic catalog contains a letter from the company president. Read it, Jim. No one connected to the ICC did any substantial work on this set at all. A few people were consulted with regard to photographs and to help in clarifying some factual information. The estate did not allow anyone from the ICC to do anything with any masters. In fact, in one instance the ICC was uncooperative with a request for the Mosaic project. The real leg work? Please explain how you would even know what it was, Jim?
In his prior post Jim wrote:
I am delighted Mr. Crosby is getting the notice he richly deserves finally from his own family, even if it is a profit making venture.
Well, so far it isn't. But we'll make every effort to make it profitable. And why shouldn't we? It is called the music BUSINESS, isn't it? If there's no chance to recoup the substantial sum of money spent on tape restoration why would any performer's family even bother? Perhaps Jim is suggesting that the Crosby family hasn't done enough charitable work. I'll let those more knowledgeable than I straighten him out on that count. And since I'm asking questions, Jim, what leads you to believe the Crosby family hadn't given Bing the notice he richly deserves before the release of this CD collection? Perhaps they chose to simply love the man and not make any profit on it. They don't owe you a steady stream of fresh material and I think we're all fortunate regarding the prolific nature of Bing's recording career. How much more do you expect?
I continue to feel disgruntled that it took decades for this to happen. How nice this would have been 20 or 30 years ago when many of Bing's fans, those that grew up with him, were still with us and could have enjoyed these wonderful transfers. Better late than never I suppose.
I can't understand anyone being disgruntled about the timing of a CD release but since Jim is I'd like to point out that 20 or 30 years ago no one of any age could have enjoyed these transfers because the technology to make them sound the way they do did not exist. But in general, Jim seems predisposed to being disgruntled because the Crosby family chooses to make business decisions without consulting him. In this case our hope is to reach a new audience that might not be familiar with the brilliant artistry of this great singer. In my opinion the timing is perfect. I'm thrilled that this material remained untainted and available for the future marketing of Bing Crosby.
As to whether this could have been done 20 or 30 years ago, oh yes Judy...I am sure "they" could have made it happen, but it wasn't on the to-do list I suppose, but I have no doubt that MCA or any one of a number of companies would have chomped at the bit to put these out in the years immediately after Bing died.
Wrong again, Jim. When some of these tracks were offered 30 years ago the industry had not yet embraced the concept of a large multi disc collection. (I shudder to think of how many LPs this set would have filled. And the cost would have been very prohibitive.) Instead fewer than 100 tracks were released with added orchestrations. An abomination, in my opinion, but the sort of thing the record industry was doing back then. Decca/MCA/Universal always had access to these recordings and selected only a handful during Bing's recording career. They have always taken the position that they needn't license any Bing Crosby recordings because they own over a thousand that they don't reissue to begin with. Other labels wonder why they should buy something that another major label has truckloads of and doesn't release. In case you missed it the first time, this is a business. People make business decisions based on profitability. Bing actually was alive to see his recording career become less profitable and even joked about it. After his death labels were absolutely NOT clamoring for recordings.
Many of those 50 million who listened to his weekly radio show would have bought them...that I am sure of.
I guess Jim is sure because he has spoken directly to all 50 million of them from the great beyond. Note that while those 50 million listeners still roamed the planet Bing's sales plummeted.
It was the fans that bought and paid for these CD's along with a couple of truly remarkable admirers of Bing's who worked to bring this project to reality.
The Crosby family, their employees and Mosaic Records brought this project to reality. I can't even begin to imagine what Jim is referring to with regard to the fans buying and paying for the CDs. That's what we're hoping happens but it certainly hasn't had anything to do with creating the product. I could also use a little enlightenment with regard to the couple of remarkable admirers who Jim claims worked so hard. Oddly I never ran into them when I was putting the project together.
Mary Frances came through rather nicely. It was pleasant to hear her praise her Mother for permitting the Mosaic collection to become a reality. I guess this is easier than suing MCA.
Again, Jim seems a little concerned that the Crosby family has not sought his counsel in their legal affairs. I wonder if Jim is cluttering up the Buddy Holly message boards with critical comments directed at Buddy's family about their lawsuit against the same label. Jim, why not check into how that worked out for the Holly family?
I make it a point to ignore Internet message boards. I mean no disrespect to the folks that enjoy them, I just don't have the time for it. But I felt compelled to respond when this particular bit of nonsense was pointed out to me. A lot of money, hard work and long hours went into the creation of the Bing Crosby Mosaic set. The hope is that we reach an audience far wider than the small community of fans that already worship Bing. But I would also hope that these hard core fans are well served by our efforts. Obviously if the thing sells we'll be able to further mine Bing's vast archive to create future products. We're already at work on a few new projects that you'll be hearing about in the coming weeks.
I find it puzzling that any fan of Bing Crosby would post negative comments about his family and express his displeasure upon the release of what amounts to a monumental release of the man's music. But of course anyone with an Internet connection can say whatever they want to. It needn't make sense.
I'll close with one thing Jim wrote that I wholeheartedly agree with:
Mosaic really has done a wonderful job in all
of this and the money spent is well worth it with just one listen
of any one of the 7 CD's.
Edited by - Judy Schmid on 01/06/2010 1:46:18 PM
USA 564 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 2:30:20 PM
Judy, I am puzzled by your hostility to the messages posted here. Are you suggesting that a message board such as this should not exist, or that it serves no benefit to Bing and the Crosby family? I've read virtually every message posted here since 1996 -- there have been thousands -- and I know that nearly all promote the legacy of the Old Groaner. There is no doubt that this board has stimulated interest in and sales of things Bing, although no discussion board is going to transform Bing into a 2010 chart-topper. The culture has moved on. It had moved on musically during Bing's life as made evident from his disappearance from the pop music charts in the 1960s and '70s.
I have no problem with the Crosby family benefiting financially from Bing's legacy. But keep in mind that the Crosby family is much better off financially than most of Bing's fans who post here. And many of us have devoted hundreds of hours into promoting Bing without any expectation of financial gain. This includes the fans who maintained the various Crosby clubs long after Bing's death.
If the fans here at times seem critical of the Crosby family it is out of their love for Bing. There is nothing preventing the Crosby family from opening their own discussion forum where they can delete any dissident messages. Here, however, all opinions are welcome as long as they are respectfully submitted and relevant to Bing. I think most of us are mature enough not to expect everyone to agree with us on every issue.
USA 866 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 2:53:16 PM
If anyone is actually scoring the points in this boxing match, I am not. But here are a few of my observations, which agree in places with people on both sides of this squabble:
* More communication between the family/BCE and the fans about things that are coming up could be a good thing. At the same time, I enjoy surprises too and can appreciate how not letting anyone know about something like the Mosaic release until it is really all ready to buy could be worthwhile (and fun).
* I doubt that Bing expected his family to make keeping his memory alive their business and goal in life. To the extent that they have done anything at all like that, they may have exceeded his expectations and proven that they, too, are fans of Bing's artistry and humanity.
* I don't know of another center for Bing Crosby fans that is more active than this discussion board, and between it and the overlapping membership of the ICC, there is considerable evidence of many private lives devoted to Bing's career and keeping his memory alive. To the extent that his memory is still alive, they and others like them must share in the credit for this, as much as any record labels or the family who may have over the years released recordings or information can. That recording companies or the family/BCE have degrees of control over those materials in ways that the fans do not have, is an understandable source of the recurrent frustration for many fans. Do those with control or ownership appreciate the devotion of fans fully? Perhaps not always. Do the all of the fans always fully appreciate the dedication and persistence necessary for the family/company or for particular record producers to take on in order to bring out a new Bing release? I'm not sure I would bet the farm that they all do.
Does all of the discussion on this forum represent a deep and abiding love of Bing Crosby's worth and legacy? Yes! (Well, at least 98+% of the time.) Is all of the discussion high-minded and serious? Well, no. Some of it is chummy chatter or odd digression. Does that make it petty? I don't think so. At the same time, were I one of the Crosby children and I tuned in here to read pages of exchange criticizing my mother for remarrying years after Bing died, or for keeping it secret, or for not changing her last name from Crosby afterward, and yadda, yadda, yadda -- I probably wouldn't tune into this forum again.
Of course, the family should realize that such a discussion, like the arguments about what is the best sort of accompaniment for Bing, the value of the Road pictures, whether movies should be colorized, and so forth, should be properly understood as symptoms of just how important Bing Crosby and other aspects of his era are to the people communing here. We can be an unruly bunch, glowing with enthusiasm for Bingness, even after all these years, but as real people also marked with a variety of warts, ticks, peculiarities, politics, and other preferences -- but you can bet your bippy we are Bing people, every one of us, down to our toenails.
It would be nice if more positive relations between us and the family could be cultivated, at least during the Holidays. I expect it is a two-way street, however.
USA 136 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 3:02:18 PM
Bing's family is now trying to bring significant Crosby recordings to the public. They are actively promoting this product and Crosby's legacy. They should be encouraged and not bashed.
USA 572 Posts
Posted - 01/07/2010 : 11:59:53 AM
After Jim's purchase of 10 sets of the new Crosby Mosaic collection at $119 a pop, his wife had to serve him wienies and sauerkraut last night for dinner (in the midwest we call it supper). There's not enough money left in the Martindale family bank account even for a divorce lawyer.
USA 471 Posts
Posted - 01/07/2010 : 2:26:16 PM
Better to eat wienies than crow like poor Judy should be. Anyone who can talk so callously about now past on fans of Bing should be ashamed of themselves. And to say that Bing's fans have nothing to do with the success (if it really is a success??) of the Mosaic set is another outrage. Sure Mosaic subscribers and a few rich but curious general music lovers may have ordered the set, but, I'd have to see the "books" before I'll ever believe that they outnumbered the fans of Bing that chose to buy this latest over-priced set. As JUDGE JUDY, the real Judge Judy says, if it don't sound real, it's not.
And as for "finding it puzzling that any fan of
Bing Crosby would post negative comments about his family and
express his displeasure upon the release of what amounts to a
monumental release of the man's music" that comes once again under
the heading of expressing one's own honest opinion. We are not lap
dogs, we have minds and opinions that may not agree with the Crosby
organization and thank goodness for that. This attack reaction seen
twice now goes exactly to what I said earlier. To point out that
the "emperor has no clothes" is something that should be
appreciated and taken into account and then corrected. The response
should not be to call for that person's head. That is the problem
with the pampered "stars" of today, they are surrounded by yes men
and amen-ers. If Michael Jackson or, to where it started, if Elvis
had had some real people around telling them where they're wrong
they'd both be alive today. Seems only the opinions of yes men are
what the Crosby reps or PR people want to hear.
Edited by - Lee on 01/07/2010 2:46:49 PM
USA 354 Posts
Posted - 01/07/2010 : 7:31:36 PM
The posts were deleted because it's not worth the fight when such nastiness only comes back at us. And please - it's not necessary to change Mary's nor Kathryn's last name, if respect is ANYTHING that matters to you. If you respect Bing, then respect his family.
Edited by - Judy Schmid on 01/07/2010 7:34:12 PM
USA 110 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 07:23:46 AM
Respect is earned Judy and is not granted with blinders on. But I do think these posts detract from the underlying issue which is the Mosaic CBS collection so I shall do the same as you have in the spirit of moving on to better things.
USA 52 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 08:09:35 AM
Frankly, I just don't know where to begin. I had hoped that Robert Bader's post had set straight some of the misperceptions recited ad nauseum on this site. I think that most of the reasonable Bing fans realized Mr. Bader's comments were from a business stand which is his job. However, there are some whose posts are so consistently negative and full of misinformation, that I am just flabbergasted. I don't know what to make of it. To say that Judy should eat crow is beyond my comprehension. Judy has worked her a** off to help the family promote Bing ever since she sought out Kathryn at Hofstra to ask her to do more for Bing. What have you few "negative" fans done? Anything? There is now an official entity putting out Bing material. Isn't that what all the considerable bitching and moaning from a few people on this site has been about over the years? Then, why are you still bitching and moaning? We as fans are not owed anything by the family, we are not entitled to know their every move. Let's just sit back, relax and see what they have in store.
Also, I don't understand all of the complaining about the cost of the Mosaic set. It contains 7 very high quality CDs, 160 songs, for $119. That's $17 per CD or 74 cents a song. Roughly the cost of a Jonzo and less than a song on iTunes.
Yes, you have the right to post whatever you want. But, just because you can, does that mean you should? Frankly, the few negative people on this Board have just ruined the atmosphere over the last several years. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.
USA 471 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 09:00:45 AM
Hmm, where to begin. Eating crow is for the remarks made (now deleted) that the Bing fans had little to do with Bing's success or with the outcome of the Mosaic set. Eating crow is for the cold hearted remark made about a now past on generation of Bing fans. If being a Yes Man to all those negative remarks is fine with you then you should begin to rethink just who is the negative one around here. And I do think $120 for a set of CDs is too much, they should have been priced around $60 or $70. Why in the world should I not say that? One doesn't have to be a yes man weasel to be an appreciator of Bing's art. As to answers to the rest of your questions, why "still bitchin'?" read the posts and you'll see exactly why.
As to all this talk of "Mr. Bader", I don't know
what he said, I've never seen it. Was it posted or did they appear
in the Bing magazine? I don't know. The only comments I've seen
that I responded to were Judy's. And as I said I didn't object to
all Judy said because I do not know what issues (Bader et al) they
(Jim & Judy) were talking about, maybe it was something that
appeared in the Bing magazine, I'm not a subscriber so I have
nothing to say on those matters. My response related ONLY to the
comments made about this board and the Bing fans, THEY were
negative, seems some people have only a selective memory when it
comes to negative commenting.
Edited by - Lee on 01/08/2010 09:07:33 AM
USA 916 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 11:36:55 AM
Sally, Thank you for your response and your (I believe) sincere comments.
Look, there are plenty (quite a crowd) of fans who are reading these comments and saying nothing. I was in that crowd, which I believe to be a "silent majority" of regular visitors and sometimes contributors to this board--but I must step forward and address you and those whose view you share.
You whine about wanting encouragement not "bashing". Grow up. Jim Kukura and Lee and Steven have been quite direct--but not at all abusive. They have encouraged you to take specific actions. They are providing you with valuable information. Directly answering an essential business question: What does our primary market base want?
Of course "the family" wants to wring every possible penny out of every product. Nothing wrong with that. That's the free market system, and that's good. But the consumer has the right (see "First Ammendment" [Bill Of Rights]) to complain about about that price and encourage the seller to provide a lower one.
When a consumer says: We want more and here's what we want", that input should be welcomed. That consumer should be encouraged--not criticized.
Sure, there can be "business reasons" for not saying in advance what product is coming (i.e. to head off preemptive competition if you know that product or a similar one could be released quicker by another source)--but, more often, advance word builds excitement and sales. We knew for months and months that Gary Giddins would release a biography of Bing Crosby--we just didn't know when. There was excitement, anticipation, and understandable impatience. This was all expressed to the author, who responded with a factual account of "the reasons"--not a whining criticism. At this moment that same fanbase anxiously (and, yes, impatiently) awaits the release of volume two of that biography, and (thanks to Mr. Giddins) they know it is still years away, and they understand why. Tell us exactly how that model is unreasonable and irrelevant.
This is a forum (please learn the definition of this word) and the contributors here use it for its intended purpose. To condescendingly say : "Yes you have the right to post whatever you want" (thank you!) and follow that by sniffing: "Just because you can, does that mean you should?" Apparently we may, if we agree with you.
Like Lee, I never saw Mr. Bader's "post", but if he is a business man--I'll bet he understands "Customer Relations"-- which, I'm sure he would say, should always be customer service. Mr. Bader, no doubt, can see the stupidity of alienating (let alone attacking) one's primary market base. The "just sit down and shut up. We'll tell you whatever we want to, whenever we want to" approach maxes out the potential of the word "inappropriate" and moves into "outrageous".
I have no problem with "the family", Judy, Mr.
Bader (whoever he is), and, of course Sally receiving the maximum
benefits of their efforts at all times. All concerned should thank
God (and Steven) for this board, its visitors and participants.
Whenever they have something to sell, they always come here and we
always respond. This answers the absurd (but revealing) question:
"What have you few 'negative' fans done? Anything[/i]?" There could
be no successful commercial enterprise at all without them--that's
all. I said That's All.
Edited by - Dennis on 01/08/2010 12:50:57 PM
United Kingdom 175 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 11:48:21 AM
I thought that both parties had shown an intention to cease this. Unhappily it seems it will not lie down.
But aren't we all on the same side - that of wanting to perpetuate the memory of the 20th century's greatest all round entertainer?
In this endeavour it matters not that some are pursuing a legitimate business enterprise and that others are following a leisure interest with some enthusiasm, (sometimes at no small cost to themselves, not only financially but also in terms both of time and effort).
To the extent that JimM made a mistake in crediting work on the Mosaic issue to the ICC, surely the reasoned approach was to correct that misapprehension. It does seem an understandable mistake, particularly as Malcolm MacFarlane is thanked in the liner notes. If thanks were appropriate why then was the role of ICC belittled? Response and counter response then merely degenerated into a form of undeclared war. When you are fired upon you fire back.
Several things were said which were unfortunate. However contributors to this forum are not all practised diplomats, and we say it as we see it, but I do feel that BCE's corporate responses to what at the outset seemed a quite valid comment have been rather aggressive and to an extent show lack of understanding and appreciation for some of the activities that have been pursued on this forum and by ICC, and which have overall been for the possible benefit of the Crosby interests. This comment in no way detracts from my appreciation of any and all of the work that has been done to produce the Mosaic set.
In viewing the comments (some now removed and therefore relying on memory), I came to several conclusions but I will limit myself to airing two:-
Firstly, whilst I am a member of ICC I am unaware of the nature of any involvement with the Mosaic set. I will say that their involvement in several issues over many years has played no small part in ensuring that some quality material remained available to the general record buying public and therefore played a part in keeping interest alive. If they were not involved in assisting with production of the Mosaic set, why not? It is difficult to think of any group likely to produce more authoritative information and more selfless assistance, surely a profound mistake. If a resource exists tap into it.
Secondly I for one cannot take seriously the assertion made along the lines that the majority of sales for the Mosaic sets are not from the fans but from their regular subscribers and readers of "Time" or from a connection made by BCE, or some such words. To some extent this begs the question as to what a fan is, and why did they become such.
Fans may not necessarily be participants on this forum or members of the ICC. Lack of such involvement might mean that they were unaware of the release of the Mosaic set until seeing "Time". However they became aware of the issue, I just do not believe that any substantial number of people spend the sort of money involved here (and I am NOT complaining about cost) unless they are pretty well committed - a fan in fact. It may be that Mosaic and BCE have statistics to back up their statement. I doubt it is much more than "where did you learn about the issue" (I bought my set from ICC who very kindly imported a batch to UK, so I don't know). In my professional career I was deeply involved in statistical work and I know that there are all sorts of ways in which stats. may be interpreted and there are all sorts of ways of getting underneath and questioning why particular superficial answers might not reveal the whole truth. I would assert that there had to be a pretty strong pre-disposition to buy. Why might that pre-disposition exist? - surely at least in part because forum contributors and ICC members alike are active in wider arenas in keeping the flag flying, and I am absolutely certain that this fact had a positive influence.
I spend much more than the average person on music, (The Bing Crosby interests benefitting pretty well over many years from the early 1950s), but I would certainly not go out and buy a multi CD set of an artist in whom I had no interest on the strength of a "Time" recommendation. I might on the other hand be a fan who first heard of the set that way and buy because of the mention. There has to have been a pre-disposition to buy, and in part at least that pre-disposition arises because some of the more committed fans have remained active these thirty plus years. (My own paltry and possibly error ridden efforts at http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Artists/Crosby/crosby.html recently updated to include the Mosaic set. This gets several hundred hits a month. Others, far too numerous to mention, have done much, much, more).
It must not be forgotten either, that some of us do what we can to get local radio DJs to take an interest, and influential DJs (in the UK at least) have been persuaded to air some of the Mosaic tracks. It all helps.
I am not so stupid as to believe that this is the last or even the penultimate word on the subject, and I certainly have no claim to the last word. But it is surely time for all to simmer down, for those of us who are fans to be a little less critical and for those representing BCE to pause in order to think a little about the most effective way in which a well organised PR effort might be marshalled in order able to achieve the best results in the interests of us all through the auspices of this forum and the ICC.
We owe strong and repeated votes of thanks to BCE and Mosaic for bringing this superb set out, but the publicity machine of BCE must also attempt to remember who has kept the light going for so long, be less disparaging about legitimate concerns and contributions, remember who might actually buy their product and perhaps keep us rather better informed than has been the case. When we get things wrong, correct us, not open fire with the heavy artillery. In short treat us as members of the same team with the same objective.
We are not an opposition to be gunned down. We are part of a team. Members of a team may occasionally ask questions. Those questions may be valid or not, but they ought at least to be considered and answered, not result in the questioner being belittled.
I reiterate that we are really all working to the
same ends. To be successful we need to be on the same end of the
rope and pulling together in the same direction. Let's do it, not
have our own little civil war.
Edited by - Jarbie on 01/08/2010 11:57:40 AM
USA 916 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 11:50:38 AM
Judy, I'm sorry that you deleted your posted comments. I'm sure they were representative of your sincere and deeply held principles. If that is the case, then stand your ground and defend those principles with sound reason and logic. This is not an unreasonable mob--the audience here is intelligent and civilized.
You can see that your remarks were taken with offense and objection. When you delete the very comments that have provoked the response seen here, it implies that you, perhaps, now see that you were wrong. If that is the case, your sincere apology would not be rebuffed.
USA 572 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 11:54:33 AM
Dennis, "thank God and Steven"! I hope this does not give me a Jehovah complex!
USA 471 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 3:06:28 PM
I should move on, but I just noticed all of Judy's latest response. She said 2 more things that are quite bothersome & illustrate just how much she just doesn't get it. [A PR person, Judy is not. Note to Bing Company find another person to represent you, a PR person should not be engendering rage, anger & hostility amongst the very fans they hope that will buy their product.]
Judy said: "The posts were deleted because it's not worth the fight when such nastiness only comes back at us. And please - it's not necessary to change Mary's nor Kathryn's last name, if respect is ANYTHING that matters to you. If you respect Bing, then respect his family."
First the only nastiness found here was the way in which insulting remarks were made against Bing's fans & the board and the nasty "you have a right to post here if you must, but why?" attitude of contempt shown. That was nasty. 2nd, Mary & Kathryn's last name, what??? I don't know again what she's talking about, so I'll just shrug my shoulders on that one. And by the way, when the subject did come up here quite some time ago about Kathryn getting remarried, I was one who said that Kathryn has every right to get married and carry on with her life. I was never against it. I have been against the way nothing was done to promote Bing or get his product out there for over 30 years after his death. Yes, there I have an accusing finger pointed, but not about her personal life. Though now, she gets a pass, everyone has a right to sit back and relax. But from 1977 to 2005 she should have been actively making sure Bing's actual real materials were released commercially, or at least trying to get most of them out there. As it is, I can only think of 2 Bing biography type programs, a Christmas compilation show and a few Bing MCA movies that were released over the past 33 long years. I don't count the self-promoting autobiography books as any genuine Bing materials that I'd be interested in. I'm talking about real genuine Bing TV shows and movies (not complilation specials). Now certainly in 30 years time all of the Bing Christmas TV shows should have been released by now in their uncut entirety. The old "it's hard to get the rights" standard excuse that you hear could have been worked out and been over and dealt with a long long time ago, had they wanted to. Sinatra Co. doesn't seem to have a problem getting out the TV shows he did, rights problems are all worked out somehow. The same could have been said for Bing's shows, still after more than 30 years we wait for something that should have been more than obvious to release commercially. Once again I am offering CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and valuable advice to you on exactly what the eager to consume buyer of Bing wants. This is not nasty or negative, if you would only listen you might find the Crosby Company rolling in success and riches. We want the stuff I previously listed, we'd be happy to buy it, but where is it??? What do we get?, another Bing biography special, it's the last thing I'm waiting for. Release all of Bing's TV shows, his sitcom, his movies, his Christmas specials. Then after you've done that, if you really have the desire, go ahead and make yet another Bing biography special. But don't expect Bing fans to start building a shrine to the Crosby Company or to the family, for that matter, till they get this stuff out that we've been waiting 33 years for.
Somehow I know this message to Judy is going in
one ear and right out the other, I just hope the Crosby people who
matter are reading this so they can see what the Bing fans really
want and act on it before we're all playing harps as Bing's
Edited by - Lee on 01/08/2010 4:26:02 PM
USA 572 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 10:01:26 PM
Lee, it would also be nice to see Bing's frequent appearances (often accompanied by Phil Harris) on the "American Sportsman" series hosted by the late Curt Gowdy. This was a quality show, recorded and edited with a generous budget. I recall seeing a rerun of one episode on one of the outdoor cable channels last year, but it featured Curt on a fishing trip with Bobby Knight. I recall that Curt let a big trout slip away, and an enraged Bobby Knight slapped Curt around and threw him overboard, or something like that.
USA 916 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 10:21:15 PM
That I would like to see. I mainly remember Bing & Phil hunting quail or pheasant. I remember a covy being flushed, and Bing fires and doesn't get them. Phil says: "Aw Bing, they got away!" Bing cooly drawls something like: " They'll be comin' back. Get 'em this time". He raises his shotgun--and sure enough here they come banking left and coming back. Bang! Bang! Bing gets off two shots and we see birds comin' down. Great television.
And I'm not givin' up on the Hollywood Palace-- a great series with big stars--a guaranteed seller.
Postscript: On Jan. 11, 2010, following my refusal to censor critical messages posted to the discussion forum, I received a message from my employer and web host of the Bing Crosby Internet Museum since 1996 that they had received a telephone 'complaint' from the Crosby organization and that they would no longer host the Museum and its discussion forum. -- Steven Lewis